By Gene Beresin, Executive Director and Khadijah Booth Watkins, Associate Director

Posted in: Multimedia, Podcast

Topics: Hot Topics

When the world feels uncertain and headlines hit close to home, how can parents help their children feel safe?

In this episode, of Shrinking it Down: Mental Health Made Simple, Gene and Khadijah explore how families can support children during times of political conflict, such as the current War in Iran. They break down how children and teens at different developmental stages process stress, from preschoolers who may regress to teens grappling with more complex emotions and questions. Tune in for advice and real-life strategies for supporting kids through uncertainty.

Media List

• Helping Kids of All Ages in the Face of Terrorism or War (MGH Clay Center)
• Expert tips on how to talk to teens about war in Iran (WCVB)
• Breaking News and Kids (MGH Clay Center)
• Self-Care Resources – Videos, Toolkit, More (MGH Clay Center)

Transcript

SPEAKERS: Gene Beresin, MD, MA; Khadijah Booth Watkins, MD, MPH;

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]

Gene 00:20

Welcome back to shrinking it down. Mental Health made simple. I’m Gene Beresin

Khadijah 00:33

And I’m Khadijah booth Watkins,

Gene 00:35

and we’re two children and adolescent psychiatrist at the Clay Center for young healthy minds at the Massachusetts General Hospital.

Khadijah 00:43

So, during times like these, you know, we’re in constant political strife. Families are struggling financially and a war dominating the news. Many families are left trying to make sense of it all and trying to make sense of what they’re hearing and seeing. And our kids are no different. They’re also trying to process these moments, and the way that they process information like this is very different from adults, and they may feel, you know, they may be feeling anxious, afraid, confused, sad or even angry.

Gene 01:12

Yeah, so in today’s episode, we’ll talk about how families can navigate the Iranian war, but also about terrorism in general, because I think the same principles are involved. And as you were saying, Khadija, I think we should explore the emotional reactions kids often have at different developmental stages, at different ages and the behavioral signs that parents can appreciate that kids are struggling. So, in other words, again, what to look for, when to worry, what to do. So, we’ll probably, we’ll discuss practical ways that they can support their kids, you know, when they need it, as well as teenagers and young adults, while managing their own stress, and we can get to that too.

Khadijah 02:03

So, to start us off, like again, I think when a major tragedy or event happens in the world, it may be helpful for parents, as they’re trying to support their kids to really understand what their feelings, their emotional reactions, might be. So, Gene, maybe it’d be helpful if you could share like, what are some of the first emotional reactions kids and teens might have and what might some of the common questions that they might bring to parents during these kinds of tragedies?

Gene 02:31

Well, as always, we need to think developmentally, because the way a preschooler, school aged kid, teenager or young adult React is going to be very, very different. But in general, kids of all ages have three questions, and those questions are, am I safe? Are you the people taking care of me? Safe? And how will this, this event, north, this war, affect my daily life. So, for all kids, I think we want to validate their feelings. We want to ask what they’re worried about, correct misconceptions and remember that, that as always, you know, conversations are marathons, not sprints, and they need to take place, you know, regularly, so multiple conversations over time. Now maybe you could help us out with this teacher. What are some general principles to follow when you’re addressing a major trout tragedy like this, or major event like this with children? So first you have to manage your own anxiety, right? I mean, so it’s like when the flight attendant says, if the pressure drops, put the oxygen mask on yourself first, and then help the person next to you. We know that parents can’t help their kids. And research has demonstrated over and over again in various different situations, that when parents can control their own anxiety and their own level of stress, they’re in a in the best position to have these conversations and also to manage the household, but with this in mind, assuming that parents can control themselves. So, what can they do?

Khadijah 04:22

Yeah, I mean, again, assuming that we can, as parents, control ourselves and our own emotions. You know, we talk over and over again about the importance of routine and keeping things consistent in a multitude of different scenarios, and this is no different. Routines really help kids feel safe and secure. It helps them predict what’s happening around them. And so, this is really important, especially in times like this. The other thing I think we can do as parents and caregivers is to share with our kids what we’re feeling and what we’re thinking. Again, I think, you know, this is hard for us, and we’re having a myriad of emotions, but this kinds of this kind of sharing, can open up a platform for kids to then and. Turn share with you. Now with that, I would say, be mindful to not over share. We don’t want to. You know overshare, and you know your child best and what they can and can’t handle. But it’s okay to say that you’re afraid or that you’re worried. It’s okay to say that that is your concern, and that’s really important. Again, it does allow this open dialog to happen, and it makes it normalizes it for them to be able to share those kinds of feelings with us that said, you know, we talked earlier about some of the questions that kids may have, and sometimes there are no great answers. And so, it’s okay to say you don’t know. It’s okay to also say, you know, let’s look into this together. Maybe that’s appropriate for your child, depending on their age or their maturity. For some kids, it may be okay to say, I’m not sure, but let me look into it and get back to you. But you don’t have to know everything, and you don’t have to worry and do this alone. You know, ask other parents, do your own research. But again, some of the questions that they might have, there may not be any great answers to that. Said, I think, you know, we again, talk a lot about the importance of connection relationships, and we have to make sure, no matter what, that we’re really trying to facilitate and help our kids maintain their close relationship with families and friends, because this is really crucial to their, you know, their world, they you know, our friends and our families. Help us stay connected. Help us stay grounded. Help us stay help us to not feel isolated and withdrawn. And so, we need to help them maintain, you know, proximity and closeness in any possible way, and for you or where it may be, depending on where you might be traveling, to connect with families, it may not feel so comfortable or be possible. So, it’s important to be, you know, creative and deliberate about staying connected. So that said, how do children respond differently based on their age? So, you know, a toddler might respond differently than a school age child to tragedy, and who might respond differently than a teenager. So how do their reactions and responses to these events going on around the world kind of differ by age?

Gene 07:00

Great question and complicated question. But, you know, it gets, it gets to the three W’s, you know, I guess what we want to start with is what to look for. And then maybe, as we talk, we can talk about when to worry. And then we should talk about what to do, so, what to look for. So, preschoolers, and that would be like ages four to six. You know, there may be, you know, typically, by four to six, they don’t have trouble, most of them separating from their parents, but they may regress, so there may be more trouble with separation. They’re looking, they’re looking all the time at what the parent’s reactions are, which goes back to what you were saying before. Be honest about your feelings, but if they see that you’re distressed, they’re going to get extremely distressed, clingy, behavior problems with basic you know, bodily functions, sleeping, fear of the dark, bed, wetting, irritability, including anger, outbursts, increased sensitivity to lighter sounds, picky eating. So, they obviously may want to regress. They may want to sleep in your bed, and we can talk about what to do, but those are the kinds of things that you may have seen earlier, that they’ve achieved, but that they regress back to now school age kids, let’s just think of this as six to 12, and then we can talk about teenagers as middle school and high school together, because 13 to 18 would be probably a reasonable thing. But school age kids also might have anxiety about separation. They may not want to go to friend’s house. They may want to stay home from school. They also may have trouble sleeping. They also may be afraid of the dark, burglars or harm coming. I mean, school age kids are worried about they’re old enough to know that there’s a separate world out there where bad things can happen, and what they tend to do is personalize it. And even though the war is in Iran, they may not know where Iran is, but they know it may know, hopefully they’ll know, and we should tell them it’s very, very far away, but they worry about this happening to them. So, where are burglaries going to get them or a parent’s going to get hurt, or are they going to get hurt? School age kids often express things physically, like with headaches or stomach aches. There may be problems concentrating, at home, at school, there may be decreased academic performance. There may be worries about death or dying, you know, and, and they may be irritable. And you may see in school age kids temper tantrums that you hadn’t, hadn’t seen before. Teenagers are different animals, and again, the difference between 13 and eight, I’m lumping 13 to 18 as one group, but as you probably know, because you’re the expert on your kids, 13 to 15 is different than its. 16 to 19. But let’s just, what is it? Oh, it sure is. So, we might want to talk about them separately, but as a lumper now, and not a splitter, they’re likely to be. I mean, teenagers are working on autonomy, independence, separation, being launched into the world. You know, they are looking forward to being separate from their from their parents, but now, if the world is seen and perceived as scary, as dangerous, it may cause a tremendous amount of distress about going out, getting going out and about, and they may wonder about, how is this going to affect their lives personally? They’re also struggling with questions about justice, power, control, and all of those things take place in the context of a war. And as they’re working on these issues, they need, they need to be able to process them and they’re not, I don’t think they’re. They’re sufficiently mature enough to be able to process them without feedback. So, before we get to that, now it’s your turn. Khadija, okay, so second, if you see any of these signs, signs in your kids, what do we do?

Khadijah 11:30

And so, as you said, a toddler may respond differently than a school kid differently than a teenage kid, and so in that we as parents need to respond differently to be able to best support them. And with the younger kids, the toddlers, you know, one of the things that we can do is just really spend more time they might need because, you know, they’re a little bit more sensitive to what’s happening in a different way. They might need more hugs and cuddles and snuggles and more time to kind of just spend with us. You mentioned some of the kind of regressed behaviors, or the behaviors that are, you know, similar to some of the things that they used to do, but now they’re doing again, like again, like co sleeping or having accidents. And so, this can sometimes, as parents, be frustrating, but it’s really important that we’re patient and that we are reassuring during this time. You know, again, we don’t want to lose our temper. We do want to manage our own anxiety. And so, it’s really important, since we can expect some expect some of these things, to be able to be patient and to be able to reassure our kids. So, if they want to return to sleeping with you for a couple of nights or for a week or so, it’s okay again. This is an appropriate response to what’s going on. What we do want to be mindful and again and deliberate about is really limiting the exposure to what they see, and they may not be wanting to tune into the news, but if we’re watching the news, or if we’re watching clips on our phone, they may be looking over our shoulder. So, it’s again, really important to make sure that we’re limiting the exposure, because some of these images and some of the commentary can be really, really frightening, and so if they do see it, it’s really important for us to kind of put it in perspective. But the best thing that you could do for a do for a toddler is to really limit their exposure. Again, we talked about routines. It’s so important to keep the routines as normal as possible, and if we can at all, minimize any unnecessary separation, any unnecessary kind of drop-offs or trips that require us not to be together. This may be a time to kind of minimize that, but as your kids are again, talking about their fears, if they can the older kids, the younger kids, again, it may be a little bit harder for them to kind of verbalize or put into words what they’re feeling. And so, they may have these worries, and we may be able to see this if we spend time with them in play. So, it may come out in there if they’re drawing or coloring or playing fantasy games with either dolls or action figures. And this is really great way for kids to be able to kind of emote and really express their emotional struggles and through the play with them. And while we’re playing with them, we can really help them kind of resolve some of these, these emotional burdens and feelings that they’re having. And this is also similar when we’re thinking about the school age kids. So, we’re going to move into the school age kids. They also may have difficulty talking about how they’re feeling and putting it into words. So again, don’t be surprised if they’re playing with toys or drawing or coloring and they’re kind of playing out some of their fears and worries, some of the some of the school aged kids might get stuck. And so again, this is an opportunity for us to kind of suggest a change in play or change the theme. But again, this is normal in the context of dealing with emotional stress over what’s going on around us with younger kids in the school age realm, it’s again, also important for us to try to minimize and limit what they are seeing and hearing again, which also means important to again, think about the conversation that you’re having, and if your kids are around, they are always listening, so keep that in mind. But if you are watching with them, it’s important that you clarify what they’re seeing and hearing and putting into context, like Gene, like you mentioned earlier, helping them to know where these places are and how far. They really are from us on the map for younger kids, again, they might see some of these horrific images and commentary over and over again. And so, it made you feel like these things are happening over and over again. So again, putting into context that this is just one image or one piece of what’s happening that only happened once and not happening multiple times. And so, I can these are really, these are things that are really important to kind of clarify for our school age kids. But again, we have to make sure that we’re being patient with them. They may ask questions over and over again, and that’s okay. And so, we have to, you know, be mindful of that. Remind them that there are many more people out here in the world that are good people that want to help and protect them, then they’re not. Again, putting things into perspective is really going to be important. Some things that we also have found helpful are if we let our kids be part of the solution or part of a process of making things better, and so it gives them a sense of purpose. And also, this sense of giving is also kind of empowering and helps us feel better. So, if they can do things like fundraisers or close drives or anything that’s going on in your community that helps them feel like they’re contributing to solving an issue or making an issue better, it can be really helpful. But again, most importantly, it is really helping kids get back to kind of a business-as-usual thing, keeping their schedules intact and allowing them to be able to converse with you pretty freely and openly. And so, as the parents, again, as we’re managing in our own emotions, we have to be able to tolerate what they’re going through and tolerate their emotions, but also be mindful to listen out for, you know, misplaced or misdirected feelings of hate. And so, we want to make sure that they are able to express their emotions and their challenges in a healthy, productive way. And we want to be mindful that we’re not slipping into a space where we’re really kind of fueling and fostering hate. So that these are some of the things that I think that parents can do to support their younger kids, their toddlers and their school aged kids, but this might look different when we’re talking about teenagers and young adults. So, Gene, what would you say to someone who wants kind of advice on how to support their teenagers or young adults?

Gene 17:02

Well, yeah, I’ll get to that in a second, but I want to come back to one thing you said, and that is, what if? What if they, what if they see other things when TV, besides the war in Iran, like, you know, there have been some horrible there’s been, there was a shooting, you know, there was that. There was, there was a shooting just recently, there was a motor vehicle that that that plowed into a synagogue, you know, what if they say, Well, what about these events? Are they? Are they part of the war because they, because they’ll put, they’ll put one in one together, and they’ll say, whoa. Is that happening here?

Khadijah 17:43

I think the these, these kinds of tips, are relevant, I think across the board, to anything that might be scary to a young person, but you know, again, if we don’t talk to them and allow them to express their concerns, we may not be aware that they are lumping all of these together as one thing. So it really is important for us to be able to have these open conversations so that we can put things in perspective for them, put things in the right buckets and boxes, because again, when kids are left to their own devices without the right information, they do tend to create the worst possible scenario ever. And so it really is important that we are talking to them frequently and talking to them openly, so that we can hear what they’re thinking and what their fears are and how they’re processing, because you’d be surprised of how they, especially younger kids, can make all of this one big thing when they’re all separate things.

Gene 18:30

Yeah, so teenagers are, you know, as I said before, they’re different, but so with them, I think more importantly, since they’re more advanced cognitively, intellectually, and they’re trying to process this. I think it’s whereas I think we want to exclude the younger kids from conversations with adults. Let the teenagers join in. You know, if they disagree with some ideas, have a have a robust conversation with them, and listen to what they have to say, and if they ask you how you’re feeling, you know, again, you got to be honest, especially with teenagers, because if they’re scared and worried about the state of the world, and they and you say, Oh, not me, and they know you’re lying, then you got something to hide and they can see, and they can excuse

 

Khadijah 19:23

me, they can see right through us.

Gene 19:24

Oh, absolutely, you know, don’t give me that. Bs right. I mean, come on, what are you scared about? And you could say, well, you know, I’m scared about the economy, because prices are going to go way high. You know, they’re going high. Gas prices are going up. And, you know, I heard on the news today that vegetables and other produce are going to be going up, and farmers aren’t going to have fertilizers, and that’s going to be a nightmare. And, you know, the economy is doing fine, but that’s AI, right? And the teenager’s kind of know a bunch of this, because they’re hearing it in the news. They’re seeing it. On social media. But then you might want to say, okay, where’d you get your information? How do you know about that? And then I would say, ask them if they want to sit down and go on social media together with you. You know not nothing super private because they want their privacy. They need their privacy. Or watch the local, you know, or national news together and stop it and say, what’d you just, see? What? How did you feel about that? You know, do you agree with that? So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really valuable, I think, to have a dialog that teenagers can feel respected and they’re entitled to their own opinions about things. So, you know, what would you do if you were in charge? You know, what would you how would you try to solve this problem and let them brainstorm these things with you? It not only gets to what they’re wondering about, but it also is, I think, a sign of kind of respect. So, the news coverage is overwhelming. I mean, I’m a news junkie. I can’t stop watching it, and it’s not healthy, but I do a lot of things that are not healthy. I try to do things that are healthy, but sometimes I don’t like watching too much, too much news. So how should parents? We get this question a lot. How should parents manage children’s exposure to media, given that there’s screens everywhere, after, after, after, you know, in a situation like this,

Khadijah 21:49

I mean, so I feel you as well, like I kind of it’s a hard balance of watching enough to stay informed and to keep up, because things are also moving so fast, but also kind of, in a way, protecting your piece. But with respect to our kids, you know, especially the preschoolers and school age kids, we really do have to limit what they see to great extremes. You know, they don’t need to be inundated with all that’s going on in the world around them as preschoolers and school age kids that you know, again, as they get a little bit older in the school age, kind of age range, some of the stuff they might be talking about in school, to some degree. So, you do want to kind of make sure that you’re informed of what they know and where they’re getting their sources from. With the older kids, you again, want to, want to limit what they see to some extent, or encourage them really with what you’re doing, to limit what they’re what they’re seeing and how much they’re looking at and hearing, but you can really watch and listen with them, and again, have this productive dialog that you kind of talked about earlier. You know, hear their thoughts and feelings. You know, clarifying misinformation can be really helpful for the older kids, but for the younger kids, really you want to limit it. You do want to, again, as we’re talking about limiting their exposure, some of their exposure, or a lot of their exposure, can come directly from us. You know, as we’re watching TV, like I talked about earlier, or scrolling on our phones, looking at clips, they could be privy to this, and we’re not really being so aware of it, also the conversations that we’re having with our friends and loved ones, either on the phone or during a visit. Again, they’re privy of all of this. So when we talk about limiting, we also have to be mindful of what we’re saying, the language that we’re using ourselves, and make sure you know that our kids are not privy to this and not around, because if they are around, they are going to be listening. But I think most, most important, especially when we think about our teenagers, who have more kind of independent access, is really helping them to make sure that they are being media literate, so that they’re using, you know, reputable site, sites that they’re not falling victim to, like these fake images and these fake kind of narratives that are put out through AI and so having these conversations about, you know, where are you getting your information from? What are you hearing things from? What kind of things are you hearing? And again, allowing them the open opportunity to kind of process and talk about this freely, so that you have the opportunity at this time to then, now direct them in the right path of, you know, again, what are the reputable sighted sites? How can you, how can you identify whether this is a real image or a fake image, and help them to kind of clarify. I mean, these teenagers probably can help us more than we can help them. But again, it is important to know that, and important to remind them that everything that they may or may not see is real, and so to keep that in mind as they are watching. So, these are just some ways to kind of manage and minimize the coverage. But again, parents are people too, and we have all sorts of thoughts and feelings in real time. And so, I guess what I would ask you is, how can panic parents also better manage their own reaction? What are some healthy ways that we as parents and adults can really cope with our own fears and grief while supporting our kids? Because it again, it is quite balanced. And like you said earlier, if we’re not being honest, they can see right through us. And this is. Best way to really have your kids disengaged if they don’t feel like they can you can be honest with them. How can they?

Gene 25:04

be honest with you? Well, before we get to the parents about that, let me ask a really complicated question, how? How do we know what’s a reliable source of news? I mean, you know, I won’t name names, but when we hear somebody say that’s fake news, or it’s biased, or it’s, it’s, it’s not the real truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I mean, do we let them watch a bunch of different stations, different shows. I mean, how do we, how do we help navigate those waters? And I think it’s going to be increasingly hard the more you know that I don’t know, without getting political, I don’t want to get political, but I’ll skate. I’ll skate. I’ll skate a little harder when the First Amendment of the free press is under a lot of duress to kind of state what appears to be factual or evidentiary that needs to be proven. You know, how do we help our kid’s kind of learn to decipher what’s reliable.

Khadijah 26:25

I mean, I think it’s getting harder and harder, again, with the ad, with AI and all of these kinds of fake images and fake narratives. Yeah, hard. I think there, there is information that’s put out and sometimes, again, obtained in that reputable way that is people are well intended. And so I think sometimes what I tell, what I tell people, and my kids, included, is, you know, sometimes you have to wait a little bit before you kind of can have a response or reaction to make sure that this really pans out. So maybe you want to compare it to a couple of different other sites and see what is consistent and what’s not consistent. But sometimes it just requires you to be a little bit patient as things kind of unravel and unfold, to make sure that the stories are coming together as succinctly as possible. And again, different news outlets might spin the story differently, but if the details of the story are relatively the same, then you can feel a little bit more comfortable that what you’re seeing is real. But I think it is getting harder and harder to really help kids’ kind of determine what’s reputable and what’s not. And so, I think you determine for you what is a site that you trust, who are the people that you trust, and you kind of stick with it. I think there is something to be said about looking at other sites, because it’s important to know what other people are saying and what, what’s going on, but you know, again, you know your kid, and if you’re a young person listening, you know yourself, and you know what works best for you. And again, I think sometimes it also just requires us to sit back and watch and wait and see how things unfold, to see if it really is coming to pass, that this is accurate, which is hard.

Gene 27:59

so fast, but I think it’s, I think it’s great, it’s a great piece of advice is to look at different outlets and sites and compare and see what they have to say. And if you see them diametrically opposed to each other, then we need a source that can do some fact checking, you know, and if and if and if and if and if and if and if and if and if and if and if the jury’s out. The answer is, well, we just don’t know, like you said before, we don’t know what the truth is. We have to see how it plays itself out. But you asked me a question about how parents can take care of themselves, because I think that that brings us full circle is, you know, you got to take care of yourself first before you can help. You know, your kids and so, I mean, self-care is super important, good sleep, diet, exercise, meditation, yoga, taking breaks. I mean, you can’t do everything at once. I’m a huge fan of using the creative arts for everybody, both to kind of help achieve some sense of balance, but also to kind of like, you know, help us spiritually and expressively, and whether it’s, you know, dancing, singing, narratives, journaling, drawing, you know, taking walks in nature. I mean, there’s been so much written about how to put the phones down, turn the media off, and take a walk, you know? And it seems to be so important. So, you know, I think, I think one message is, is that a lot of these self-care messages for parents really apply to the whole family, and if you did that together, if you took a walk in the woods or a walk on the beach or whatever, with the whole family, I think that would really be but useful. So, we there are a lot of questions, and we’re. We’ve been through a lot here. But just to wrap things up after, you know, so let me ask, after a tough conversation with kids, what’s your Khadijah? What’s your favorite way to help the family relax and, you know, normalize? What do you do?

Khadijah 30:24

It’s harder. Definitely, it’s been harder as my kids are older, because they want to spend time with us differently. I’ll say that. I won’t say that he doesn’t want to spend time with me. I’ll say that he wants to spend time with me differently. And so, I have to think as much about what I want to do with him and how I want to spend time with him in the way that I used to when he was younger, like I was always planning our time. But I usually will start by asking or saying even, like, we haven’t spent much downtime together. Like, what do you what would you like to do? Usually the answer is, nothing. And so, then I say, well, what I really miss you. And so, like, I really want us to spend a little bit of time together. And so, then I kind of give him a little bit of a menu or a list of options. And now, what I do enjoy is really kind of just sitting back having a casual dinner and watching a movie like I think that’s a nice way to relax and reset. It doesn’t allow for so much opportunity to talk because you’re watching a movie together. You know, going out to eat at least allows us to have the time to and from to talk a little bit more, but in a restaurant, you do get an opportunity to kind of wait in between meals. So those are the ways. I think usually something to involve food is usually the way to get to my son at this stage of life, but, but I think it is important to emphasize to them that you feel like it’s important and that it’s important to reset, and the value that it has to the relationship, but also to them. Like, you’ve been working really hard, you’ve been studying really hard. Like, I think we need to take a little bit of a break, and so I think if we kind of couch it that way, but also, especially with the older ones, include them in the process and planning of it all you have the you have much more luck being successful. What kind of things would you do with your kids, or, I guess, even with?

Gene 32:01

Your grandkids. Well, that’s, that’s right, because my kids, my kids are grownups. Well, you know, I think the more time I spend, I mean, I can FaceTime, well, I can certainly FaceTime any of my kids and grand and grandkids, and I do a fair amount, and that’s really helpful for having conversations. I don’t have grandchildren. I mean, I have my 16-year-old twins and grandchildren. I can have these conversations as teenagers, but many of the others are younger. What helps me connect with my kids really is spending time with them and with their kids together. We shared music. There’s this iPhone family we have. We have two or three iPhone families. One plays Wordle, which I used to do. One is meant for just photos, videos, keeping everybody up to date. And then we just kind of like, you know, endlessly, kind of like, send hearts and likes and emojis and various different things. But, you know, life is busy, and I think I we also try to, we also try to schedule family events, whether it’s ice skating or whether it’s, you know, looking forward to, you know, an Easter egg hunt, you know, and, you know, a birthday party is, is, is valuable, really valuable.

[OUTRO MUSIC BEGINS]

And usually, a lot of these events involve music, at least in my house. So, for those of you at home, if you like what you heard today, consider leaving us a review, and as always, our conversation will help you have your us, I’m Gene Beresin

Khadijah 34:05

And I’m Khadijah Booth Watkins. Until Next Time.

[OUTRO MUSIC ENDS]

Episode music by Gene Beresin

Episode produced by Spenser Egnatz