By Gene Beresin, Executive Director and Khadijah Booth Watkins, Associate Director

Posted in: Multimedia, Podcast

Topics: BIPOC, Parenting

How can parents, mentors, and communities help young Black men feel safe, seen, and supported in today’s world?

In this powerful episode of Shrinking it Down: Mental Health Made Simple, Gene and Khadijah are joined by Dr. Nadia Ward for an important conversation about the mental health and well-being of young Black men. Together, they discuss the impact of racial trauma, toxic stress, and racial profiling, while highlighting the importance of mentorship, identity, and community support. They offer insight, hope, and practical guidance for parents, mentors, educators, and anyone committed to creating safe spaces where young Black men can heal, grow, and thrive. Tune in now!

Media List

• Nadia Ward (Clark University)
• Mosakowski Institute (Clark University)
• What Is Resilience? (MGH Clay Center)
• What to Look for, When to Worry, What to Do (MGH Clay Center)

Episode Transcript

SPEAKERS: Gene Beresin, MD, MA; Khadijah Booth Watkins, MD, MPH; Nadia Ward, M.Ed., Ph.D.

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]

Gene 00:29

Welcome back to Shrinking It Down: Mental Health Made Simple. I’m Gene Beresin

Khadijah 00:34

and I’m Khadijah Booth Watkins.

Gene 00:36

We’re two child and adolescent psychiatrists at the Clay Center for Young Healthy Minds at the Massachusetts General Hospital across the United States, young black men are navigating reality shaped by racial trauma, toxic stress, racial profiling, and a constant awareness that everyday interactions, especially with law enforcement, can carry life-altering consequences. It’s not a pretty picture, and it hasn’t been for a long time, I might add, but Nadia can tell us more about that. That the data is sobering, the stories are painful, and for many families this isn’t abstract research. It’s really a lived experience.

Khadijah 01:16

So, today we’re talking about what it means to raise, support, and protect young men of color in a society where fear, hyper vigilance, and grief too often coexist, along with hope, resilience, and purpose. We’ll explore how racial trauma affects mental health, why so many young men struggle in silence, and the importance of parental guidance. Here to help us discuss this important topic is Dr. Nadia Ward.

Gene 01:42

Dr. Nadia Ward is a nationally recognized expert in mental health and educational equity. She joined the Mosakowski Institute from Yale University, where she served as associate professor of psychiatry at the Yale School of Medicine, and held leadership roles in clinical training, urban education, and program evaluation, and I must say that I was an intern at Yale in pediatrics, and I had the same. I worked with them, I worked with mentors that Nadia knew very, very well, James Comer to many other folks at Yale who were pioneers in this field. She also held leadership roles as director of urban education and prevention research and senior evaluation consultant with Yale Eval at the consultation center at Yale, with over 20 years of experience. Her work focuses on improving academic and mental health outcomes for racially, racially and ethnically underserved students, and as I mentioned, you know, we, you know, I worked with, with the same folks that she did, and Yale was, it was a pioneering place back then for racial equity and studying development of underserved youth,

Dr. Nadia Ward 02:58

and you’re dating both of us actually mentioning this, James Comer. My understanding is he’s still there at the Child Study Center, doing great things, and has been for many, many years.

Dr. Nadia Ward 03:14

Yeah, yeah. And I will also just say, Khadijah and Gene, I’m so pleased to be here this this morning, having this conversation with you, and as you shared a little bit about my bio, I think the most important thing that I’ve accomplished in my life is being a mother of a black male young man who is doing some extraordinary things, so I come at this, you know, obviously from the perspective of being a psychologist, a clinical and community psychologist, but also as a mom,

Gene 03:44

and Khadijah, you’re a mom of two.

Khadijah 03:47

I was gonna say, yeah, I think it makes it incredibly personal, because I have two young men who, you know, near and dear to my heart, and so, so very proud of them, but also sometimes so very afraid for them, in terms of what, what they, what they have to face, how it shapes there, you know, sense of self, and how it sometimes requires a lot to keep pushing them forward to kind of, like, you know, go for their dreams and their goals. So

Khadijah 04:15

I’m looking so forward to this conversation for many reasons.

Dr. Nadia Ward 04:19

Yes.

Gene 04:20

So, so, so, Nanda, can you introduce the work that you’ve done in mental health with young black men at the Mosakowski Institute, and also tell us about the King’s Council initiative and the YMOC, that’s the Young Men of Color Treat, and what you’ve learned from these experiences?

Dr. Nadia Ward 04:37

Yes, absolutely. Happy to share. So, Gene, I will say that I joined the institute in July of 2019 and the focus of the institute, let me just share briefly with the audience, is to essentially think innovatively about how we design, implement, and evaluate behavior. Health interventions that we are using with young people, young people we work with, basically 13 to 24 years of age, in terms of our scope, the scope of our audience, and in particular, we build behavioral health tech tools, and so we built an app, and we do, we build sensory immersion rooms, etc. And in the course of the work that we’ve done here at the Institute, I’m also very much connected with the students here on campus, and out of concern that the President, the former President David Angel, had upon hiring me, he said, Nadia, you know, myself and members of the board of trustees are very concerned about the way in which black and brown young men are being treated in society, and I want the institute to do something about that, and it was a series of conversations that I was so encouraged by Gene with David Angel, members of the board of trustees at Clark, and actually speaking with the students themselves led us on this path of developing a young men of color group to support them and in their collegiate experience here on campus, one of the collaborations that I was able to forge just to get closer to them and better understand them, interestingly enough, was through our athletics department, and so I became the faculty member, faculty mentor for the men’s basketball team here on campus, partly because I love basketball, Gene, but Khadijah also partly because my son, since he was seven, had been playing basketball all his life, and so I love it. I grew up in a family of a lot of athletes, male athletes, and so that was my kind of foray into really understanding and speaking with young people on campus, young men of color on campus, specifically about their lived experience, and at that time we were just as a nation witnessing online the death of George Floyd, and so there was a lot of energy about that, and I was doing, I was developing a podcast, and I said to the folks that I was working with, I can’t have this conversation without including the voices of black young men, and so we quickly put together a panel of young men where we led a focus group, I did not lead the focus group. I actually invited my dear friend Dr. Brett Rayford, who’s a licensed clinical psychologist, black man, to actually have this conversation with these. Ask them simply, what does it mean to be young black male in society today, and how is that shaping your outlook, your future orientation, and that one hour conversation led to those young men saying we want more of this, we want to have more conversations about this topic, because it’s been helpful to us, and that took us on a journey, Gene, of those young men working with Dr. Rayford every other Sunday for two hours for a semester, having these critical conversations about race and what it means to be young black men in America. At the end of that experience, it was May, and we were in the middle of COVID, and the campus was closed, and these young men said to me, “Dr. Ward, we need to see each other, and I said, “I appreciate that, but COVID, it’s like, how we gonna do that, fellas? And they said, “We don’t know, but you have got to figure it out, Dr. Ward, we have to see each other and spend time with each other in the same space. I said it’s a closed campus; I can’t have some students who were in Rhode Island, Louisiana, New Jersey, Connecticut, they, you know, were kind of other states. So what we were able to agree to was to rent an Airbnb, they all got tested and all tested negative, and we worked out a way for them to spend an extended weekend together talking about these issues in person and also spending time doing wonderfully self-healing kinds of activities, they went hiking, they went kayaking, they prepared meals together, but most importantly, in the evenings, they had the chance to speak with other men like themselves who could offer some inspiration, some wisdom, some support. And just conversation about their own career and professional life trajectories, and that was such a powerful experience for them that we continue to do that work every year thereafter, and it was as a result of that work that I feel like those young men have truly been transformed by that experience, and the ones who have graduated from the institute come back and still commit to support the, you know, younger cohorts of young, young people at here at Clark that also come through the program. So, I would say, Gene, we are now, we’re starting another cohort in the fall, we are now in our fourth, fourth year of doing this,

Khadijah 10:47

that I mean, I think that also really speaks to how powerful and impactful this sense of community and belonging is, and which is why so many struggled in Covid when they were so isolated from there, from their people, from their groups, but also, how protective, how great a protective factor is having a sense of, of a community that you belong to that sees you and hears you and respects you.

Dr. Nadia Ward 11:13

Yes,

Khadijah 11:14

So, so what would you say are the mental health priorities for young men of color? You know, what, what is important? What’s the importance of intergenerational relationships for these young men? And what does male role modeling look like for them? Because, you know, again, we really are speaking about how do we tailor, you know, interventions and treatments and things for the group, and not in thinking about them individually, and what, what does it look like for them specifically?

Dr. Nadia Ward 11:42

Yes. Thank you for asking that question, Khadijah. I will tell you to your point, we are often in development mode, you know, as professionals, as psychiatrists, psychologists, program developers, creating interventions that we think work for young people, and sometimes, and actually, not sometimes, oftentimes we don’t take the time to ask the young people themselves, what do they need, and so, as I have worked with these young men, I asked that question, you know, what do you all need, what are the stressors, the strains, the concerns that you had, and Khadijah, I will tell you, they did not hesitate. They told me immediately. They said, “Number one, don’t lie to us. And I, you know, kind of eyes wide open, said, “You know what? Does that mean essentially? They shared, “The world is on fire. None of us knows what to do. Don’t pretend that you do. And most importantly, when we find ourselves in these relationships with adults, caring adults, perhaps counselors, therapists, psychologists, doing work, you expect us, and I quote, to spill our guts, but often you’re not with us, your own perspective that could really be helpful to us, so don’t lie to us and tell us everything is okay when it’s not, because we see that it’s not. We have our cell phones, we’re scrolling, we’re paying attention to what’s happening in the world. Tell us the truth about how painful and how difficult this is to live in this moment. So that was number one. Number two, they said they needed community, they said they wanted to be in a space where they could be with one another, they could create a sense of belonging, they could be vulnerable with one another, and they wanted to hold each other accountable to the goals that they themselves had for themselves, for themselves, and for themselves as a collective, as they moved forward with these ideas, they were all very committed to figuring out ways how to support the black community, given the special talents, gifts that they all had that they wanted to bring to the community. So that was the second thing they also talked about, the strength of intergenerational relationships, and they said, you know, all people think that we really don’t want to spend time with them, but we actually do, and it’s because we want to hear the stories of how you have overcome challenges in your life, so that perhaps we can learn from those experiences and avoid the potholes that we’re navigating in our lives as well, they talked about identity, that they wanted to feel good about who they were, where they came from, and they wanted to be able to have a voice and to change the narrative of how society views them, in particular, that was also super powerful, powerful, and then finally they said they wanted new pathways towards healing, and they said, you know, therapy is wonderful, and all that in its, in its context. However, what we really need from adults is to give us access, to give us an opportunity to experience, and to be exposed in the world with. With in ways in which we can be positive agents of change in the world, so we need you to sponsor us, we need you to give us access, give us an opportunity to do good in the world, and all of that, Khadijah was so powerful for me, because they very clearly kind of got their finger, they put their finger on the pulse of it, right, and said we need you to help us change the narrative, narrative of how, how we’re seen in this world and create the ecosystems that support our development, and that’s what we try to go about doing here at the Institute.

Gene 15:44

That’s terrific. It’s a lot to take in, but you know, at the Clay Center, we talk about the 3w’s what to look for, when to worry, what to do. We can come back to what to do, because that’s going to be, I think, a key element in this, but let’s, let’s look at parents, caregivers, teachers, coaches, folks who are kind of like looking what to look for, and, and, and I would, what are those, what are some just for that, for the folks who are listening, who are in roles of caregivers, whether you’re a teacher or a coach or a parent or a mentor, what are some of the signs of racial trauma, such as anxiety, anger, withdrawal, hyper vigilance, and how can parents or caregivers be attentive to their children and young adults, even when the signs aren’t overtly expressed.

Dr. Nadia Ward 16:42

Yeah, that’s a great, great question. I think our primary role as nurturers, as caregivers to young people, however we define that, and in whatever ways in which we interact with young people, our primary role is to be observers, keen observers of what they’re kind of who they are, the special talents and gifts that they have, that’s unique to them, and to be giving them that feedback gene, so you know, so understanding who these young people are is one big piece of that, and then also closely attending to how they are seen, and in terms of in proximity to the different groups that they may find themselves in, so whether that might be a church, that might be athletics, that might be peer support groups, that might be community, but as caregivers we need to be paying attention to how we are viewing them and seeing them in these different contexts, how they are interacting in it and interfacing, and then creating space for them to share with us how they were feeling, particularly as we’re thinking developmentally about the tasks that they are needing to master, right, and offering them spaces when they find themselves, you know, running into difficulty, particularly in interpersonal relationships with their peers, making sure that they have safe spaces to talk about how they are doing right, and for us to be observing, so for sometimes young men have difficulty, as we know, labeling feelings, finding words to express how they’re doing, for us to be sitting in that space with them, and offering them supports, and our insights and observations about what we’re seeing, and then checking in with them about, is that right? Am I getting that right? Am I observing that right? Tell me, what your sense is, right? So, then, then we know kind of where we need to be intervening with them and providing the necessary and unique support, depending on the situation that they’re bringing to us. So, we got to be keen observers and create sacred space, I call it, for them to feel like they can be vulnerable and share how they’re actually doing,

Khadijah 19:06

So, given that young men of color experience higher rates of mental health challenges but are the least likely to seek help. How can parents and caregivers normalize mental health support at home, so that you know this vulnerable population is able to seek help and stay on a path of, you know, health and wellness.

Dr. Nadia Ward 19:25

Yeah, Khadijah, it starts with us, right? Our children, I’m always saying this, they’re constantly watching us, even when we think we’re not, they’re not. And so, the extent to which we do a good job of taking care of ourselves and sharing how we do that. How we’re protecting our mental health is the first step in being able to support our children around that, especially young men of color, and so and then identifying ways in which we’re actually talking about what we’re going through with them. And the tools that we’re using to support ourselves through it, so for example, when we might be experiencing something at work or with a family member or with partner, maybe there’s some anxiety around that, being able to have words to share and describe that, and then identifying the tools that we are using is one way to be modeling for young people, young men of color, how to do this in a healthy way, breathing techniques, mindfulness, meditation, journaling, connecting with nature, spirituality, which is big for the African American community, right, but the extent to which we are living that offers a model for them that helps them manage and normalize kind of some of the stressors that they might be experiencing, and giving them the tools that they can actually use to address some of the concerns that they’re also experiencing,

Gene 21:03

Yeah, it’s interesting, because we always say, you know, it’s like the flight attendant says, if the pressure drops, put the life mask on yourself first, and then help the person next to you. I hear you loud and clear. We’ve got to show them as role models.

Dr. Nadia Ward 21:20

Yes,

Gene 21:21

what? How we can take care of ourselves, what our own self-care and resilience is, and where we failed, right, and where we failed, and what we’ve learned from that. So, so that’s super important. But you mentioned another thing, too, besides our being role models, is how to create. You mentioned safe spaces, so how can we create places like in families and faith communities and schools and community organizations spaces where that promote healing, connection, and resilience in, you know, black boys and young and young men of color,

Dr. Nadia Ward 22:05

So let me just piggyback on something you just said and make a bridge here. The other thing that we don’t necessarily get right, or we don’t do well in school settings, in particular, Gene, everybody talks about the importance of social emotional learning and teaching important social emotional learning skills. There are those five pillars, right? Self-awareness, self-management, appreciating perspectives of others, problem solving, decision making. As adults, if we’re not doing those things, how is it that we’re supposed to be teaching young people how to do those things, and how do we create, as a result of those pillars, those spaces where young people have the opportunity to reflect on themselves, their self-management, in terms of how they’re interacting and interfacing with peers and important adults in their lives and making good decisions. We have to trust that our kids with the tools can actually make good decisions about how it is that they’re interacting in their world, and so as a community, again, one of the ways what communities can be supportive of young people is to simply be on watch, right, such that everyone in the community is uplifting and supporting young men of color. Right, so it’s like I’m just going to date myself, Gene. When I was a kid, my mother used to send myself and my three brothers to my grandmother’s in even born, Pennsylvania, Khadija. It’s a little town, coal mining town near the Mason-Dixon line, you would miss it, like you blink, and you’re in and out of even born. My parents, for their own mental health, would drop the four of us off at my grandmother’s and leave us for the summer. Now, my grandmother was very clear about the streets we could play on and the streets we couldn’t play them right there, was Front Street, Back Street, and Main Street, that was it, that was how big the patch was, Khadijah, and if you strayed a little too far on Back Street, Miss Mary up the street and around the corner made a phone call to Lavon, my grandmother, to say, hey, I see your kids up here playing around on Backstreet, right? And my grandmother would tell her, reprimand them and send them home, right, send them home. But the beauty of all that was, you know, those old people in that little town were all committed to our health, our well-being, our safety, and everybody was all in, and so if I was not doing what I was supposed to do, Grandmother heard about it, and then I got it when I got home, and so there’s something beautiful about community coming together to support kids in important ways where they know. School, they are seen, they are heard, they are cared for, and that other people are also watching out for them and their best interest. So that’s one way I feel that community can be helpful, and to also be providing support and needs for kids when they need it. Kids are hungry. We know stories of teachers in schools who always have food in their desk for kids who need that right, and so what are the ways we should be thinking about as a community? What are all the way that we should be thinking and supporting young, young men of color, and what it is that they need? So that’s community support for parents, and I’ll say, as a parent myself, Gene and I was a single parent for many years, Chandler was seven when I became a single parent raising him, and even though he had a wonderful model in his father, I also recognized that I needed to be intentional about the men that I surrounded him with, and so I took very seriously the role of Godfather in his life. I took very seriously the men, my colleagues and peers that I worked with, that I wanted, and I literally would have conversations with them and say, here’s who I need you to be for Chandler, and got their buy-in and support around that. So, as a parent, it was being intentional about creating the village, right, because I was a single mom, and then it was also about Gene showing pictures, stories about important black male figures, not just in our society, but in the world that he could see himself in, in terms of the modeling, so kind of broadening his perspective of yes, the world might see you in this way, but there have been extraordinary individuals in this world that look like you that have done remarkable things to help society that you need to know that you can do that too. So also, again, being very intentional about the images of excellence, black excellence. What that looks like, and then coupled with that, exposure experiences putting him in spaces and places that are that will challenge him on how he sees himself in the world and what he can affect the world. And so, not only was I doing that for my son over the years, but the same things also I’m doing here at the Institute with the young men of color that I encounter through our work. That was a long answer to a short question. I’m sorry. No, but I think really highlighting how important community and all hands on deck really is, and I think when we were living in New York City, and we lived on the Upper East Side, which we didn’t have any problems, but you know, then we moved to Harlem, and my older, my son, now 24 say, you know, I really like it here. He’s like, I feel like these people see me, and they speak to me. He’s like, when we were on the Upper East Side, he’s like, they weren’t unkind to me. He was like, but it just didn’t feel like I fit, like they didn’t really notice me. He’s like, ‘Here they asked me how you doing, what’s your name, how things are going in school? He’s like, ‘You know what, they wait to hear the answer. And I was like, ‘You know, as an adult, just trying to get through day to day and get to work, get back home, I never really noticed that. But for him, so young, to really notice the difference in the environment and in the sense of again community and belonging that he felt and how much that made a difference, so much so that you know he shared it with me, just like I’m glad we moved here, and so I think again those things are so important, you know, definitely it looks different from, and I also used to go to my grandmother’s house in Virginia, and it looks different in terms of what that community looks like, but you know, I definitely remember people from in Harlem, because, like, I saw your son, look like he came home early, I just wanted to make sure you knew whether I didn’t know, but I appreciated that there’s someone else looking out for him, because I think when kids get in trouble, kids get in trouble when there’s a lack of supervision, when there’s a lack of the knowledge or wherewithal that someone is looking for you, someone’s going to be checking for you when you come in the house, someone’s going to notice if something is off, and I think that helps kids feel, you know, safer and protected, and also gives them a sense of, let me think twice before I do this thing that I know I’m not supposed to do, exactly right, and the other thing the community does, Khadija, that you’re bringing to light when you said that the experience your son had. I love the ways in which community celebrates young people, especially young women of color. So, it’s the MLK, you know, celebration where everybody comes out, and I remember this distinctly, and I was, I was mortified. My father wanted. To speak, you know, the kids have to do, they’ve got a speaking piece, right? They have to, you know, learn about somebody in their history and talk about that, or they get celebrated for their grades or doing something wonderful in the community, but that celebration of them along the way is also, I think, really, really key and protective to your point, it’s like a protective factor for young black men.

Khadijah 30:27

That’s a natural segue into the next question we have for you, which is really, How can parents help young men of color develop this strong sense of identity and self-worth, and have hope for a future in a society where they don’t really feel so safe, they don’t really feel like the path forward is really going to be so meaningful and so, so, so vibrant for them, with all of that they see on TV and in the media, and the dehumanization of men of color, and just the violence that they have to face on a day-to-day basis. How do we kind of protect, preserve, and promote their sense of identity and self-worth in a sustainable way?

Dr. Nadia Ward 31:06

Right, I think as someone who absolutely values young people in my work as a psychologist and as a parent, I’ve absolutely felt the tension in holding both of those things, Khadija. The how do I share with these young men that I’m working with, and my son, the realities of their lived experience of being young, black, and male in this world, and at the same time instilling hope in them for a future that they can actually believe in, and so that is not an easy space to navigate, and I will say one of the things that I’m often kind of thinking about with this work, and also in my own personal life, is reflecting back again, because you know young people need to be seen, reflecting back to these young men, how you see them is important in my own home, it’s so important for parents to literally have pictures of their children placed in the house, so they can see that they’re valued, or pictures of family together where they’re valued. So that’s one important piece, and number two, not to next necessarily sugarcoat what that difficult experience is, because they’re going to come home and tell you right, or in the instance of Clark, students will come in here and say, I was in class and had this, this experience, this microaggression. How do I deal with that? And so it is creating the opportunity for them to have those conversations with you, share with them the realities of what they’re, they may experience, but also share the coping strategies and skills right around, and as a result of kind of constantly being hyper vigilant and on edge, feeling like someone is always watching you, someone is always you’re constantly being surveilled. I had a client shared with me in my private practice. What’s hard about being black and male in this society is that we are constantly being surveilled, and if you’re constantly being surveilled, you know, you know your nervous system is always going to be on high alert, you’re going to be hyper vigilant, hyper vigilant, and, and how do you deal with that, and so making sure that they understand how to assess, they’re always often attending to tone, tenor, you know, nonverbals, energy in spaces that they encounter, and so making sure that they understand how to decompress, how to find affinity groups that are supportive of them, where they can actually have the conversations they need to have, be able to put their guard down a little bit and exhale, I think is super critically, critically important, and then the exposure period experiences around installation of hope, and this is where we come in, making sure that we are intentional about putting them in places and spaces where they can absolutely shine. You know, they’re always going to rise above, even when they think they can’t do it right, but if we put them in places and spaces where they have to actually demonstrate what’s special, unique, their genius, they’re going to, they’re going to step up to the plate for that, and so you have to tell them the truth, but you also have to give them opportunities where they can see the evidence of their own success that gives them the hope to. To continue to be resilient and continue to strive.

Gene 35:03

from a practical standpoint, I just want to come back to this hyper vigilance as a clinician, as a parent, our young, our young black men and boys and men need to kind of be able to be hyper vigilant, because.

Dr. Nadia Ward 35:24

it’s protective.

Gene 35:25

Let’s face it, the world’s not a safe place for them, and they’re targeted.

Dr. Nadia Ward 35:29

Absolutely

Gene 35:30

people of color, or people are targeted. So, we need to know how you do, how do you help them utilize coping skills in different situations to balance protective hyper vigilance with feelings of safety and resilience and balance, because that combination, it’s not easy to learn,

Dr. Nadia Ward 35:52

right, and they’re just doing developmental things, right, you know, like stuff that young people do, you’re absolutely right, Gene, and so all of these young men that I had spoken to as a result of this work, and my son included, they all have had the talk, Khadija. I don’t know if you’ve had the talk with your sons, and all black young men understand what that means, and that what that means is if you are out in the world and you experience an encounter with law enforcement. Here are the things that you do to keep yourself alive, right? So that conversation absolutely needs to happen, and the conversation about being aware of your surroundings, and the sense of students here at college. I remember saying this to my son, you know, if you’re in a space where young people have gathered, maybe they’re drinking, they’re dancing, they’re whatever the party is, know where the exit is, right? Know where the exit is, never allow someone to hold your drink for you, right? And then we even get into conversations about how to protect themselves sexually when they find themselves in close encounters, right? And the thing that is beautiful about this gene, and people, you know, I remember when I was in training, my supervisors used to say, oh, talking to young men, they’re the worst, because they don’t, you know, they just don’t talk, right. It’s hard to have therapy, but just, they just don’t talk. I find that to be absolutely untrue. I think if they trust you, they will tell you more than you actually want, that you feel like you actually want to know. But we love that, right? Because at least they feel like they can get that out, and they can share. But so, you absolutely have to have the talk with them, say, here are the things that are going to keep you safe. Here are the things that are going to keep you alive. And if you need to have, if you need to contact me, call me. I’d rather you call me than call a friend. And I, depending on obviously where that parent is located, I will be there. I remember saying to my son, when he was, he was going to Quinnipiac University, and I said to him, you’re going to be encountered. He was an athlete; he is an athlete. I said, you’re going to encounter a lot of things just by virtue of, you know, how you look, you’re an athlete, you’re kind of quiet. I said, if you ever find yourself in a space where you have been drinking too much, can’t get back to campus. What do you do? You’re in an unfaced, unsafe, or unfamiliar space. You can call me. I will come get you. I will ask you no questions. I will make sure that you’re safe, and then we can have a conversation later, right? And he took me up on that gene, he took me up on that, but he was safe, and he was alive, right? So we, as parents and caregivers, just important adults in young people’s lives, have to be able to be explicit about what it is that they need to know to keep them safe, and that they absolutely have access to us when they act when they need someone to connect to help them navigate a difficult situation. No matter what time it is in the morning. I’ve had a number of calls, you know, 1, 2, 3 o’clock in the morning with, you know, young people who have put themselves in compromising positions, and I’m glad they picked up the phone, glad they picked up the phone.

Gene 39:35

One final question, and that is, is that you know we can talk to our young people, we can give them suggestions, we can help them balance safety with hypervigilance. All this is on an individual basis or in small groups, but let’s broaden the way we need. Changing this is a tough question. We need to change society. We need to change the culture. We need to do bigger things. That’s and Khadijah has talked at length about advocacy. How, and I know this is way beyond the scope of simple conversation like this, but what can parents, caregivers, young people themselves do to help us kind of shift the cultural environment in which we’re living to make this a more loving and caring environment for everybody,

Dr. Nadia Ward 40:43

I will tell. Thanks, Gene, that is such a beautiful, beautiful question to ask. I will tell you the thing that struck me most in these conversations with these young men, especially the first one, where they told me about their belief in forgiveness. I was not anticipating that to be a part of the conversation, but despite all of the things that they were able to articulate in terms of the experiences that they’ve had that were so dehumanizing for themselves, they said we’re not going to harbor hate or bitterness or ill will because it doesn’t serve us any good, that yes, we have to be kind of hyper vigilant, but we’re also willing to extend ourselves and to be open if folks want to be open with us, and for me, what that meant, Gene, was they are absolutely willing to engage in difficult dialogs and conversations that help heal and bridge communities and relationships of people within those communities, and so that was so powerful for me, right, that they have every reason in the world to be resentful, but they, in their wisdom, they recognize that the forgiveness is for them, not the folks that you know have hurt them in the ways that they have experienced. I’ve also witnessed there’s a program that we have here on campus called Difficult Dialogs, where the students get trained on kind of not just conflict mediation and resolution, but they talk about the things that we, as sometimes humans, feel very uncomfortable talking about, and so to the extent to which we can get young people in a room with each other to ask the questions that they have, and to be open, even, and learning, and understanding, and appreciating differences. I think that’s the first step to getting where you’re getting to where you’re talking about King, and I, what was so astounding for me was the willingness of these young men to do that toward the end of shifting the memes that society has and holds of them, but they, not they, are not, they aren’t those means, right? And all they want to do is to be seen. I remember one of the quotations, one of the young men said, is that we are always on edge, always striving to be more masculine, to be smarter, to be stronger, to run faster, and all we want is to be ourselves, all we want us to be ourselves. So, how? So, this, so what they’re saying is this is on us as the people in their lives that supposedly support them. How do we begin to create spaces where we have these conversations and dialogs? And then, to Khadijah’s point, how do we stand up for them?

Khadijah 44:05

How do we bring people into these conversations? Because a lot of the work is talking about how we do, like the parents, the caregivers, the community, support these young people, and, and, and try to protect them against the forces that are trying to bring them down. What? How can the other? Because the community is larger than that. So, how do the people that are not people of color. how can they. what can they do to help in the process of diminishing trauma, you know, advocating for, for, for change, and really just again making this a much safer, healthier place for, for, for men of color.

Dr. Nadia Ward 44:44

Yeah, you know, listen, wet books have been allies through history. We can pinpoint civil rights how, you know, white folks have been allies around this critically important topic. And I think for those who are genuinely interested in seeing change the way that you’re describing gene and are generally interested and looking at their own privilege and doing that work and putting themselves in places and spaces where they can broaden their knowledge and understanding about the experience of young black and brown boys and people of color more broadly, where they can feel comfortable asking the questions they need to ask, being keen observers and supporters, advocating, standing up, you know, that’s where all of that begins. That’s where it begins, and I think folks would be pleasantly surprised about the willingness for folks to come together and be supportive in creating initiatives and opportunities to invite that conversation and to create change on a on a larger scale, I think that’s where it starts.

Gene 46:12

This is a great way to wrap things up, because in my mind it generates hope, but so to wrap up, we tend to like to do these kinds of things. If, if there’s one small thing that parents or caregivers could start doing today to support the mental health, to support their son’s mental health, what would you suggest?

Dr. Nadia Ward 46:41

This is going to sound so simple, and just a little bit corny, if you will. Forgive me, but even if they don’t want to spend time with them, just quality time, turn off the phone, turn off the computer, all the electronics, the social media, and spend time with your child, and just listen, listen to them, listen to them tell you the stories that they are thinking about, the things that they’re involved in, and current, whatever, but just literally spend time with them, spend time with them,

Khadijah 47:23

I think, to your point, like it may seem like they don’t want to spend time with you, and it may seem like they have nothing to say, but if you make the time and insist, spend the time, they will enjoy it, they’ll enjoy it, that it’ll, it’ll be meaningful, and the next time will be easier, the next time after that will be easier. So, it really is just kind of, again, you know, setting the expectation, letting them know that you care and you want to spend that time. And again, some of it’s a facade, like, and they, and they probably would rather be doing other things, but, but, but, but there’s power in kind of family again, connection, and feeling like you are seen and heard by your family. We talk about the community and feeling that you are part of a community, but really it matters most at home. And so, really, I think it’s so important that we don’t lose sight of how they appear as teenagers and how they push us away and just kind of give up. I think it’s really important that we stay persistent in that as well,

Dr. Nadia Ward 48:22

and what’s beautiful about that is when we do that, when the time comes where they actually need you, they will come, they will come and tell you this is what’s going on, and that could be, you know, the difference between literally life and death for them, so you know it’s just showing up and creating space to be with them, I think, is the very simple, elegant way to begin,

Gene 48:48

and I think one other thing that they, during that time, I always encourage the use of narratives, narratives that are important in our lives, in our, in our, in our relatives’ lives, even in the lives of people who can be known, because stories carry meaning.

Dr. Nadia Ward 49:12

They are powerful, powerful. One of the things that drives my son crazy, Khadija, I don’t know if you do this with your boys, but on his birthday, I will call him at the time of his birth every single year, and I will tell him his berth story. I will tell him how I labored hours, hours right before having him.

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What was happening. The first person that he opened his eyes and saw, which was not me, was just his dad. And every year I get this mom, it’s 7o’clock in the morning. I don’t care; I’m telling you your birth story.

Khadijah 49:50

Oh, I’ve never. I’ve never. I do call them at their birth time, but I’ve never done the birth story. I’m going to, I’m going to add that to my mix.

Dr. Nadia Ward 49:57

Yeah, yeah, great. That’s good. Right, so to your point, stories are important. That’s the thing that they hold on to

Gene 50:06

So, for those of you at home, if you like what you’ve heard today, consider leaving us a review. And, as always, we hope that our conversation will help you to have yours. I’m Gene Beresin,

Khadijah 50:20

and I’m Khadijah Booth Watkins. Until next time,

Gene 50:29

Thank you.

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Episode music by Gene Beresin

Episode produced by Spenser Egnatz